NB - lightest model with ABS (in AU)?

[speed]

there is an old saying along the lines that "I become unintelligible when I struggle to be brief" . JBT managed very succinctly to nail the ABS point .

This highlights my point. I don't have the time to write long posts. Congrats on meeting my requested challenge though


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[Aussie Stig]

Oh shoot Mr M, come back crawling when you reread your D & L. Not to be derogatory but you appear not to be concerned about real life accident studies.

To everyone else, it's patently obvious that carrots increase night vision = lots of people believe it, like UFOs and ABS. Funny that, 'nuff said.

[Caffeine]

On a straight, flat, even and smooth surface, a competent driver could probably match or even better ABS, but if there's any variation to the surface, such as gravel or undulations or even some fluid, ABS will win. No matter how good a driver you are, you only have 1 input for braking 4 wheels.

Good multichannel ABS will brake each individual wheel independently, and cycle on a wheel if the limits of adhesion are reached. As a competent driver you can only brake all 4 wheels up to the limit of adhesion of the wheel with the least grip.

[project.r.racing]

i dissagree.

the surface and friction from all four wheel needs to be similar for abs to work 100%.

2 wheels on gravel and 2 wheels on tarmac means the abs cannot correctly predict the why the 2 wheels on gravel with reduced fiction and locked up, then the abs system will unlock the pressure on both front wheels.

this is where driver knowledge, experience and skill becomes king.

[Caffeine]

On a straight, flat, even and smooth surface, a competent driver could probably match or even better ABS, but if there's any variation to the surface, such as gravel or undulations or even some fluid, ABS will win. No matter how good a driver you are, you only have 1 input for braking 4 wheels.

Good multichannel ABS will brake each individual wheel independently, and cycle on a wheel if the limits of adhesion are reached. As a competent driver you can only brake all 4 wheels up to the limit of adhesion of the wheel with the least grip.

i dissagree.

the surface and friction from all four wheel needs to be similar for abs to work 100%.

2 wheels on gravel and 2 wheels on tarmac means the abs cannot correctly predict the why the 2 wheels on gravel with reduced fiction and locked up, then the abs system will unlock the pressure on both front wheels.

this is where driver knowledge, experience and skill becomes king.

Maybe with early single and dual channel ABS. My experience with the 4 channel ABS in my MX5 tells a different story.

[project.r.racing]

so you have dríven and braked hard on surfaces of varying friction levels above 60kph? i'm not talking a wet tarmac road with a few puddle here and there.

i'm talking about braking with 2 wheels on grass and 2 on tarmac at above 60kph etc. without performance suspension or tyres? and in multiple cars?

[sailaholic]

Abs in dirt and mud is sh*t. Testing says abs increases stopping distance by a factor of 10 in muddy conditions.

This is because you actually want the wheels to lock and abs doesn't generally understand this.

4 wheel abs ie EBD is supposed to only work abs on the wheels that are locked not all wheels.


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[speed]

Maybe we should get aussie stig to do a comparison test for us ;)
Can we at least all agree that nanny controls will eventually reduce the natural ability of a driver to eventually mean that they wont know what to do in any given situation as they've never needed to before?
You guys might be happy being a passenger in your own car but not me.



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[project.r.racing]

Maybe we should get aussie stig to do a comparison test for us ;)

Done it on gravel, wet grass and tarmac.

Did a education day up at Gympie once. At speed of 60, 80 and 88 kph. Some cars had ABS, EBD and some non. Still to this day I remember puting a 2007 Mazda 3 neo in a complete 180 degree spin just by 2 footing the brake pedal at 60 kph. 2 wheels grass, 2 wheel tarmac.

If you aint familiar with the Gympie skidpan it is a giant tarmac loop similar to a 400m athletics running track with a concrete skidpan at one end, also a small gravel section to one side of the straight. This straight is used for Ambulance driver, and has varying surfaces, ie grass, gravel and tarmac. You come up and over the upper loop and drop 2 wheels into the non tarmac surface, and then attempt to do a huge skid and drive out of it.

I can tell you right now that just relying on the abs to steer you out of this varied surface section will not work. The ABS is just not capable enough. Unless someone wants to agrue that a 98 ABS system is better than a 03 ABS system.

We had a various array of modified cars present. As well as the partners car present also.

A note of those with partners. Do not ever try it with you partners 3 while she is watching. If the ABS doesn't kill you, the partenr will.

Can we at least all agree that nanny controls will eventually reduce the natural ability of a driver to eventually mean that they wont know what to do in any given situation as they've never needed to before?

Agreed.

[speed]

Project.r.racing, you speaka my language


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[sailaholic]

Agree also project. I was more thinking the NC could maybe do it.

The stability control on the prado can be pretty intrusive on gravel but hasn't caused any spins.

I've been a passenger (in the drivers seat) with a hilux with all the aids though. Abs wouldn't let me brake. Stability control just kept trying to correct any slide and promoted the car sliding down the road camber into a drain. Wasn't fun.


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[gslender]

Can't speak for ABS vs non, but I did a Porsche driver day and learnt that nobody naturally knows how to emergency brake with ABS (at least none of the 20 drivers and the instructors haven't ever seen anyone know first up either)

As simple as it sounds, never take the foot pressure off. Hard to do when you are at 130 and the anchors go on, wet surface and steering. But when you do it works great. Back off a bit and the car looses control.

What we learnt from that was that you must keep your brake pressure up and let the ABS and ESP do its thing.

Mind you these were $100k plus sports cars, but the ex-racing driver instructors all agreed few people know to stay planted and just steer out of trouble.

Completely opposite to what I'd do in my 25 year old MX5

[Mr Morlock]

I dont understand PRR's point. If its an argument that ABS is not a lifesaver and you cannot steer under ABS then its contrary to the automotive and safety authorities.The other thing to take on board is that no system can work in all situations but modern systems are still a generation ahead of cars built 3 decades ago. Black ice, sleet, oil, diesel on road surface etc- very problematic.

There are millions of drivers in Aust- people who have no interest in cars- all ages and all sorts of infirmities and many not concentrating. People can go 10 years without an emergency stop so being able to step on the brakes is important. Gslender is right about the way to do it in ABS and that is standard practise but some people still do not know this. Consider that many drivers never get told these things especially those that had their licences before ABS was commonplace.

Prado- skid control- a mate says his life was saved after being T boned at speed- he had no chance of taking any evasive action or controlling the car.

[JBT]

What we learnt from that was that you must keep your brake pressure up and let the ABS and ESP do its thing.

Mind you these were $100k plus sports cars, but the ex-racing driver instructors all agreed few people know to stay planted and just steer out of trouble.

It works just like that on my NC and Mazda 6 too.
Yes, it is initially difficult to keep the brake pedal down and steer with tyres screeching when you have practised not to.

[M1474]

No one has brought up the fact that sometimes you may want to lock all 4 wheels. In a high speed spin it may be the only way to keep your car from changing direction and coming off the road/track into parked cars/kerbs/armco/concrete barriers.

Offroad the ABS in my 2007 forester is downright dangerous, onroad the ABS in my wifes 2007 SP23 is much the same.

Perhaps I'm just not a good enough driver to have ABS...