The right brakes for a Track day NA

joe4agze · Postby **joe4agze** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Ok I'm confused. It's not hard to make that happen but I'm hoping here I'm going to get some shining beacon out in the distance that is going to tell me exactly what to do. ;-)

I have a NA 1.6L that has the following specs:
Standard engine with CAI and extractors
Standard brakes
Bridgestone Potenza Suspension (I know weird but that is what is written on them).
Something like a 26mm swaybar on the front, I would have to confirm what is on the rear.
15inch rims with Yokohama A050.
Diff and Gbox are standard from what I know.

I current PB is 1:16:53 around Wakefield.

The car is not going to registered and will only be used for mx5 club or open Track days.

I'm very impressed with the handling for the car and I mainly wanted to improve my confidence in the brakes and then start squeezing out more power.

I'm slowly buying bits to turbo it. I'm up to wanting the exhaust Manifold to suit a T25 Garrett. If anyone happen to have one;-)

The first mods I wanted to do was the brakes as well as fit the Haltech ECU, COPS and injectors that I have already.

Now with the brakes there seems to be a lot of different ways to go from:
willwoods
NB2 all round
NB2 front only
NB1 all round
NB1 Front only
NA6 with Slotted and good (Hawk pads)
or just stick with the standard unslotted (to increase friction surface) rotors and use Hawk pads like the HP or Blue.

I was basically told that since you only get up to 140km/h down the straight at Wakefield with the standard engine setup (as mine currently is) you will not get the brakes hot enough to warrant going from the standard type NA6 rotors (unslotted as slotted reduce friction surface) and best thing to do is just use Awesome Pads.

This seemed to make sense but I also want to make sure that I can allow for the power increases of the Turbo in the next 12 months or so and the small power increase I'll get from the haltech, COPS and injectors in the next 3 months.

This same person also told me that these should be the priorities in setting up a MX5 from most important to least:
1. Alignment
2. Brakes
3. Suspension
4. Power

And this also made sense. There is no point having heaps of power if you cant direct it.

So I guess after all this my question is:
What Brakes should I go for now that will see me through the build process?

I want something to work awesome now and later (of course). I'm hoping this can be achieved with the right Caliper and Rotor setup and possibly a change of pad type as the power increases.

Ideas?

Thanks.

Magpie · Postby **Magpie** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:19 pm

Slotted do not reduce friction surface! The slots allow gas build up to escape.

Tyres stop the car, what do brakes do for you when they are locked up you skid and don't stop! It is very easy to overbrake a car especially if you have 'crap' tyres.

As mentioned in a previous post what is so great about Wilwood rotor/calipers but I digress. What is your final power goals and get brakes to suit. You could go NB8B and not have to change again, with the exception of pads.

I got about 0.4mm of wear on my front DBA T3 rotors to about 6mm of pad wear (Winmax W5's). This was mainly track use and a bit if daily drive stuff.

Put the car to stock sway bars and enjoy the handling. Too big front sway will increase under steer but again this is a product of tyre grip. If your tyres have more grip then you can do changes that are not suitable for non track cars.

What works for one car may not work for another. Set your car up for your power expectations first as this will spare you the pain of upgrading the car AFTER it had more power.

madjak · Postby **madjak** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:30 pm

You'll get heaps of different advice on here, but my advice is to keep the upgrades to a minimum at first, enjoy the car and then figure out what you need to upgrade once you've dríven it a bit. That way you can gauge how much each upgrade has improved your times.

Step 1:

Install Wilwood proportioning valve (then wind it fully open)
Install SS brake lines (more for safety than anything, 25 year old rubber lines should go)
Replace brake fluid with at least dot4
New brake pads all round and rotors if they are worn. Something like a Ferodo DS3000 or any other high temp, high friction pad. I would suggest not getting slotted rotors.
Do a basic alignment (lots of camber all round, a little toe in at first)

Step 2: Track the car and have fun.

Step 3: Upgrade parts as they wear out or you get bored of the pace.

With the NA6 stock rotors and the Ferodo DS3000 you'll have excellent stopping, however they will wear through your rotors quickly. They will also get very hot and glow at night! Once you've run them a bit, then decide on if you want bigger rotors like Wilwoods or NB8B.

The Yoko A050 are excellent tyres and have heaps of grip when hot. You'll be able to stop very very late into the corners, so late it will be disturbing! Just work your way up to the limit and even in a NA6 you'll find your times will drop dramatically as it's all about braking and corner speed when you don't have the power. I found with the above combo I could pretty much out-brake any car on the track.... it helps you're not going that fast in a stock NA6 in the first place.

Once you have the car braking you'll probably find you want better suspension, a 6 speed, better diff, more power etc...

I basically did what I've said above. Started with a stock NA6, put on new rotors and pads plus Yoko A050s and ran it like that for a season. Then I doubled the power and added Wilwoods all round. My times at the local track dropped from 74's to 72's (stock NA6) then 70's and now 68's (NA8)

Hopefully that helps...

Rick

MattR · Postby **MattR** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:02 pm

Good pads - a good raod orinetated pad, I like Hawk HPS in mine, others like different

Fresh fluid - Penrite Sin, or whatever it is called now. Easy to get, cheap and good. i use it in my MX and also used it in my racing 240Z, never had a problem with fluid boiling on the road or track

Check the calipers are in good condition - if the brakes work as they should you are OK, but at pad changes make sure you use the proper grease on the pins and everything looks and works as it should and no leaks.

Swap rubber brake hoses for stainless/braided kit, pretty cheap and will improve the feel of the brakes

Drive the ring out of the car on th etrack and come back with a smile.

Don't overthink stuff, it will only lead to headaches.

sailaholic · Postby **sailaholic** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:52 pm

Na6 rotors and good pads are unlikely to pull you up once turboed. Until then they'll be fine.

Depends on how many track days you do as to how fast you'll wear out stock stuff. No point spending money on equipment you'll turf with 90% or its life left. If you just need pads do pads. If you need rotors and pads either use really cheap rotors or do a brake upgrade.

Nb2 vs willwood is probably a budget question. Keep in mind willwoods need different brake lines then standard.

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StillIC · Postby **StillIC** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:43 pm

MattR wrote:Swap rubber brake hoses for stainless/braided kit, pretty cheap and will improve the feel of the brakes

I can't feel the difference between rubber and braided, having swapped to braided lines. Negatives: braided lines are less flexible, possible putting strain on the fittings when turning the front wheels. Positive: Will not perish.

joe4agze wrote:This same person also told me that these should be the priorities in setting up a MX5 from most important to least:
1. Alignment
2. Brakes
3. Suspension
4. Power

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If your goal is to lower your lap times, the list is:
1. Power
2. More Power
3. More Power
4. More Power
This is based on the fact that MX5s already handle pretty well stock, and the brakes are good enough with decent consumables (pads + rotors). Alignment is free if you do it yourself, and should be good enough if the car is well maintained.

davekmoore · Postby **davekmoore** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:59 pm

......... or
1. Track time
2. Tuition
3. Repeat 1 and 2 until you have extra spare $$$$ to waste.

Yes, I am indeed recommending doing the opposite of what I did.

Magpie · Postby **Magpie** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:03 pm

for the previous post! Yep and the exact opposite of what I did as well...

The American · Postby **The American** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:20 pm

1. Do what Magpie and Davekmoore suggest, and then
2. Save your pennies, and then
3. Buy a car built by someone like either of the above mentioned! :-)

Dan · Postby **Dan** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:42 pm

^ Yep, that was terrible advice from StillIC saying adding power is the best way to turn better lap times in an MX5.

May last year in a relatively stock car (sway bars and tyres) I did a 1:15.22 around Wakefield, May this year with a car that I slowly modded over the year but didn’t go crazy with power mods (probably added 10kw) I did a 1:09.87 around Wakefield with 17 track days of practice.

Seat time, Datalogger, tyres and coilovers were the 4 best mods for lap time.

joe4agze · Postby **joe4agze** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Thanks guys for all your replies.
There is a lot of good information in there.

Dan, what sort of brakes are you running?

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StillIC · Postby **StillIC** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:05 pm

Dan wrote:^ Yep, that was terrible advice from StillIC saying adding power is the best way to turn better lap times in an MX5.

May last year in a relatively stock car (sway bars and tyres) I did a 1:15.22 around Wakefield, May this year with a car that I slowly modded over the year but didn’t go crazy with power mods (probably added 10kw) I did a 1:09.87 around Wakefield with 17 track days of practice.

I disagree. More power will always improve lap times , all else being equal. You cannot change the laws of physics.

Yes other non power improvements will reduce lap times. Yes, practice will make you faster. I didn't say they wouldn't. I simply implied that they aren't as important.

Also, an NC has much more power than an NA6 to begin with, and yes, with more power, you too will go faster Dan. Without more power your lap times will merely asymptote towards the potential of the car with the power it has. You may have achieved this Dan. Now it is time for more power. It is always time for more power!

cookie · Postby **cookie** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:37 pm

Until more power leads to crashing into something or someone it's a great plan. Getting more power is hardly cheap.

Reliable fast or cheap. Chose two.

Trackphotos · Postby **Trackphotos** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:44 pm

Power masks bad driving. Power should be the last resort to improving your times, to be used only when you've exhausted all other methods to be quicker. Not to mention the reliability and cost, as cookie said.

StillIC · Postby **StillIC** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:58 pm

This was to be an edit to my previous post but I ran out of time.
At Wakefield, my 1.6 NA6....
With tired stock engine + extractors + coilovers + 100 year old R specs, 1.18.something
With tired stock engine + extractors + CAI + coilovers + A050 R specs 1.16.7ish
Rebuilt and modified engine & exhaust + coilovers + A050 1.12.9
Rebuilt and modified engine & exhaust + coilovers + A050 + better balanced and stiffer anti-roll bars + front lip 1.12.49
I drive Wakefield less than once per year.

cookie wrote:Reliable fast or cheap. Chose two.

Agreed.

Trackphotos wrote:Power masks bad driving.

Agreed, sort of. I have seen quite a bit of bad driving of high powered cars.

Trackphotos wrote:Power should be the last resort to improving your times

Not if you are trying to win a race or championship now. And not if you are sponsored and need to keep your sponsors happy. As I said above, it depends on what you are trying to achieve, and how much time/money one has to spend, and many other aspects of life.