2017 CAMS NSW Superprints Championship

[Nuddy]

Semi-slicks? is that r-spec?
Wheel alignment of course. That's one of the beauties of the MX-5, fully adjustable wheel alignment, front and rear as standard.
Mine was set up today for track work on the Kumho Solus HS51 tyres that it came with.
What would be the estimated lap time reduction going to:
a) R spec with appropriate wheel alignment?
b) racing slicks with appropriate wheel alignment?
c) R spec with coilovers and appropriate wheel alignment?
d) racing slicks with coilovers appropriate wheel alignment?
e) just coilovers and appropriate wheel alignment?

If it is too frustrating runningfully standard with the Kumho Solus HS51 tyres i could go to better road tyres as a first step and still be in class 1.
Next step would be coilovers with springs. That would be the 2 mods that would take me to class 4.
Then anything more would take me to class 6 so I would add a LSD and probably R-spec tyres.
Slicks would take me into class 10.

So we'll see what sort of driver I am. I will do a few days standard with the Kumho Solus HS51 tyres and see how I go.
Then will probably modify as above until I can get under 1:16 to qualify for MX-5 Cup.
If I can qualify then I can just add slicks as Cup has no classes.

Meanwhile I can run NSW Supersprints in 1b with the car standard and with the Kumho Solus HS51 tyres.
Or go for better road tyres and still be 1b.
Coilovers would take me into 2b.
Slicks would take me to 5a but I can't see where R-spec tyres fit in here - too late at night perhaps.

[Guran]

What Tony is saying is that it is best to forget about slicks (no tread) until you're in a serious racecar with serious power. You do not need them on a road-reg car - waste of time and money.

"Semi-slick" is a very broad term that applies to a huge variety of tyres in different capability. We tend to sub-divide them as "R-spec" (treaded race tyres) and "S-spec" (treaded street tyres that are grippier than regular street tyres) both of which are "semi-slick" and (mostly) road legal.

R-spec: Yokohama A050, Dunlop DZ03G, Kumho V70A, Toyo R888, etc
S-spec: Yokohama AD08R, Dunlop DZZ2 Star Spec, Kumho KU36, Hankook RS-3, etc

R-spec is accepted in CAMS NSW Supersprint Type 1 and 2 provided they are street legal ("road tyres"). They are not accepted in standard classes at MX-5 Club trackdays.

S-spec is accepted in both Type 1/2 and standard classes at MX-5 Club trackdays ... but they're slower than R-specs.

Avoid Nitto NT01 which is a DOT-approved R-spec tyre "recommended for competition use only" and the CAMS Supersprint Panel regard them as ineligible for Type 1 and Type 2 (they can be used in other Types in which slicks are permitted). This decision all hinges on whether or not they are street legal. They are street legal in the US (DOT approved) but there is conjecture if they are illegal in Australia. This ruling has only been enforced since last Sunday ... two of our guys were threatened with being bumped out of Type 2 because they were running NT01s. After a LOT of frustrating negotiation, they were given a reprieve for the one day. They are not permitted at future rounds in Types 1 and 2.

[Nuddy]

Good to get some terminology clarity.
And good to understand that R-spec is ok for type 1 and 2 for supersprints.
So i could run them with everything else standard and be 1B in supersprints and class 6 for club days
Any estimate on lap time improvement going from Kumho Solus to S-the spec and from S-spec to R-spec.
If it is worthwhile going to R-spec then that would free me up to go with coilovers for class 6, or stay with S-spec and coilovers for class 4 and 2B.

In reality I'm not interested in winning trophies, pointscores etc. so it doesn't matter much what class i am in.
What does interest me is the cheapest way to get lap times down to the level that i can qualify fo entry to MX-5 Cup races.
I don't like turbochargers and don't want to increase power. I want to do the best i can with the stock NB8a engine for max' reliability of engine and running gear.
LSD also goes into the mix. I think it would allow me to remain in 2B but take me into class 6 if i go to coilovers or remain class 4 if i don't.
What sort of lap time improvement LSD vs open diff for a stock NB8a?

[Guran]

Ah OK, now we're getting to the nub of the matter ...

In my experience with stock NA6 and NB8A 10AE, there is roughly a second between each step in tyre choice, give or take a few tenths.

LSD vs open diff? I'm guessing but possibly around half a second. It affects your ability to get out of slow corners where you're prone to spinning the inside wheel. Yes, even on stock power. There are two slow corners at Wakefield (8 and 10).

Try calling Gordon Leven Motorsport Tyres at Emu Plains and ask about used A050s in 195/50R15 or 205/50R15. They often have stacks of them and at around $50 each, they're unbelievably good value. You should get a half a season out of a set. They are brilliant R-specs.

To get your times down quickly, forget about stock or clubman classes, as that will take you too long. You need a faster car. Fit a Torsen LSD, lowered springs and stiffer swaybar. Headers and exhaust would help too, but not essential. With R-specs, that's all you need to have a cheap car capable of consistently lapping Wakefield in under 1:16. Once it's set up right, it will be a much easier car to drive on the track compared to stock.

[StillIC]

....
Avoid Nitto NT01 which is a DOT-approved R-spec tyre "recommended for competition use only" and the CAMS Supersprint Panel regard them as ineligible for Type 1 and Type 2 (they can be used in other Types in which slicks are permitted). This decision all hinges on whether or not they are street legal. They are street legal in the US (DOT approved) but there is conjecture if they are illegal in Australia. This ruling has only been enforced since last Sunday ... two of our guys were threatened with being bumped out of Type 2 because they were running NT01s. After a LOT of frustrating negotiation, they were given a reprieve for the one day. They are not permitted at future rounds in Types 1 and 2.

In any case, the Nittos are not on the CAMS approved tyre list, and as such are best avoided. My understanding is that they were always illegal in Type 1/2 state supersprints, but some competitors were getting away with using them. That is, if a tyre is like a race tyre, then it has to be on the CAMS list to be legally considered a road tyre. But yes, finally being policed.

From the rules:
"Tyres specified in the Production Car Tyre List contained in Schedule E of the CAMS Manual shall be deemed to comply as Road Tyres but Race Tyres are specifically excluded from this definition of Road Tyres"

http://www.supersprints.com.au/rules-and-regulations/2017/SSP032017TechnicalRegulations.pdf

[guss]

In any case, the Nittos are not on the CAMS approved tyre list, and as such are best avoided. My understanding is that they were always illegal in Type 1/2 state supersprints, but some competitors were getting away with using them. That is, if a tyre is like a race tyre, then it has to be on the CAMS list to be legally considered a road tyre. But yes, finally being policed.

From the rules:
"Tyres specified in the Production Car Tyre List contained in Schedule E of the CAMS Manual shall be deemed to comply as Road Tyres but Race Tyres are specifically excluded from this definition of Road Tyres"

http://www.supersprints.com.au/rules-and-regulations/2017/SSP032017TechnicalRegulations.pdf

Scott, I've been doing some research on the matter and the CAMS' approved tyre list contained in Schedule E of the CAMS Manual is very outdated.

http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/GeneralRequirements/GQ06-Schedule-E-2017-1.pdf

The list of Road tyres is limited to the following tyres:

Achilles 123S
Bridgestone RE 540S, RE55
Continental Conti Competition C1, ContiForceContact ZR 19
(front and rear variants)
DMACK DMT-RC
Dunlop Formula R (D83J, D84J, D93J, D01J, DZ02G, DZ03G), Formula 901,
Formula W10, SP Super Sport Race
Federal 595 RSR, 595 RSR-R, FZ201, FZ202 R Spec
Hoosier Street TD
Hankook Ventus TDZ221, RS-3
Kumho Ecsta V700, V70A
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, TB15
Ohtsu Falken Azenis, Azenis RT215
Pirelli P Zero C, P Zero Corsa
Silverstone FTZ Sport Type RR, S575, S585
Toyo Proxes RA-1, Proxes R888,
Trampion R881
Yokohama A021R, A032R, A038R, A039R, A048R, A050

However, the same Schedule states that:

"In addition to the tyres listed above:
(a) Any tyre that is certified and marked on the tyre wall with E-Mark, D.O.T or AS standards shall be acceptable for use in
Speed events; or
(b) Tyres not containing E Mark, D.O.T or AS standard markings may be accepted by CAMS for use at Speed events.
Such tyres shall be generally and commercially available from stocks normally kept within Australia and listed below.
CAMS reserve the right to add or remove tyres from the below list at any time. To be considered for addition to the
below list for use at Speed Events, each tyre must have a tread pattern across the entire width of the working area of
the tyre. Such tread shall incorporate a void ratio of a minimum 10% of the total contact surface in the unworn tyre.
Manufacturer Tyre
Avon ACB10 Semi slick compound cross-ply
American Racer M28 Compound 704
Note: CAMS reserve the right to add or remove tyres from the list at any time. To be considered for addition to the list
for use at Speed Events, each tyre must have a tread pattern across the entire width of the working area of the tyre.
Such tread shall incorporate a void ratio of a minimum 10% of the total contact surface in the unworn tyre."

NItto NT01 is a DOT approved tyre that is road legal in the US and, based on the above, should be acceptable for use in Speed events as a Road Tyre. Even if it didn't have DOT approval, it is a tyre that is generally and commercially available from stocks normally kept within Australia, and CAMS could easily add it to the approved exceptions listed in the same Schedule.

....
Avoid Nitto NT01 which is a DOT-approved R-spec tyre "recommended for competition use only" and the CAMS Supersprint Panel regard them as ineligible for Type 1 and Type 2

It is a common mistake to think that Nitto's are recommended for competition use only. The Eligibility Officer thought that was the case when he approached me on Sunday and Bob Welsh thought the same when Stewart and I went to him to discuss the matter further. The Supersprint Technical Regulation describes race tyres as:

"Race Tyres means and includes: -
(a) Racing slicks and/or
(b) any tyre marked "for racing use only”, or words to that effect and/or
(c) any tyre where the manufacturer has stated in writing that: -
(i) it is suitable for racing use only and/or
(ii) it is suitable for use on the race track only and/or
(iii) it is not suitable for use on a public road or highway."

Please note that the regulations are specific about tyres marked for race ONLY. The word only is the big differential. Nitto's have on ther tyre wall the words "recommended for competition use". PERIOD. You won't find the word 'only' anywhere. In my opinion, some idiot working at Nitto's marketing dept came up with this BS, thinking that writing "recommended for competition use" on the tyre wall would give the tyre the extra credibility it needed to establish itself in the high performance tyre market. .

The last and most important argument is the fact that, no matter what's written on the tyres or what kind of approval they have, we are all experienced drivers who have been through many different sets of tyres and it has become common knowledge amongst the drivers that Nittos NT01 are one of the slowest R-Spec tyres on the market. The only benefit of using them is the cheap price. Assuming that the CAMS panel has (or should have) the same knowledge as us drivers about these tyres, I can't see why they have decided to ban Nitto's from the Supersprints, forcing us to double our tyre budget each season.

[Guran]

That's such a slippery subject Scott. The old Bridgestone RE55S is listed in Schedule E but their direct replacement the RE11S is not. I loved the old RE55S and when I couldn't get them anymore I got a set of RE11S, assuming their absence would just be a matter of waiting for the list to be updated - they were fresh and noone knew anything about them. Subsequently they were never added and are not eligible as road tyres. I've never seen a reason given but assume it's because they're "recommended for competition use". Fortunately I never got pinged by the eligibility officer but found they were slower than the old tyres anyway. Go figure.

The moral is don't buy Rspec tyres that are absent from schedule E assuming they're eligible as road tyres without first seeking a ruling from the competition authorities. It can be a very expensive mistake.

[Nuddy]

Ah OK, now we're getting to the nub of the matter ...

In my experience with stock NA6 and NB8A 10AE, there is roughly a second between each step in tyre choice, give or take a few tenths.

LSD vs open diff? I'm guessing but possibly around half a second. It affects your ability to get out of slow corners where you're prone to spinning the inside wheel. Yes, even on stock power. There are two slow corners at Wakefield (8 and 10).

Try calling Gordon Leven Motorsport Tyres at Emu Plains and ask about used A050s in 195/50R15 or 205/50R15. They often have stacks of them and at around $50 each, they're unbelievably good value. You should get a half a season out of a set. They are brilliant R-specs.

To get your times down quickly, forget about stock or clubman classes, as that will take you too long. You need a faster car. Fit a Torsen LSD, lowered springs and stiffer swaybar. Headers and exhaust would help too, but not essential. With R-specs, that's all you need to have a cheap car capable of consistently lapping Wakefield in under 1:16. Once it's set up right, it will be a much easier car to drive on the track compared to stock.

OK I will start off stock for the hillclimb on 30th April then probably change brake pads and tyres for Wakefield on 15th May and look for a Torsen.
I knew Gordon Leven in the 1970s when we both ran Datsun 1600s.
Should i stick with standard wheels or go wider?

[Tony]

On another matter, has anyone heard whether the whole window net/windows up decarcle has been resolved?

Clearly the CoC hadn't read and fully comprehended all the rules, regs and CAMS Manual. Either that, or they are having trouble differentiating between closed and open cars.

[david_syd_au]

On another matter, has anyone heard whether the whole window net/windows up decarcle has been resolved?
Clearly the CoC hadn't read and fully comprehended all the rules, regs and CAMS Manual. Either that, or they are having trouble differentiating between closed and open cars.

I spoke with the scrutineers at SMP last weekend and they were clear that a window net is only required in "open cars" with the drivers window down. Note that The definition of an open car, which they understood and accepted, taken from the CAMS NCRs is:
"An automobile without a supporting structure between the tops of the windscreen pillars and those of the rear window (if fitted)".
The scrutineers were of the opinion that all non-caged MX-5s, including those with a removeable hardtop or a powered retractable hardtop, are open cars. It is not so clear for fully caged MX-5s, like mine, which do have a supporting structure from the windscreen pillars back.
It seems that the organisers of round 1 were operating with a different definition of "open car".
I plan to raise this issue with the supersprint committee, as we seem to have to do every year, and have it clarified for event organisers and scrutineers at the remaining supersprints this year.
My personal opinions on drivers windows is that they should either be fully down, or up far enough that there is no chance of the drivers helmet making contact with the top edge of the glass. I need to investigate the rules in this area.

[greenMachine]

On another matter, has anyone heard whether the whole window net/windows up decarcle has been resolved?

Clearly the CoC hadn't read and fully comprehended all the rules, regs and CAMS Manual. Either that, or they are having trouble differentiating between closed and open cars.

Tony, I understand that the answer is yes and no.

I understand the Panel intends to write (again, last time was last year after Chris' incident) to the organising clubs, pointing out the regs do not require open cars to run with window nets, that a removable factory hardtop does not make an open car a closed car. I am not sure exactly what the Panel may say in the letter, but my understanding is that is the Panel view.

I do not know if this letter has happened yet. It needs to happen before Rd3, when I would expect the same CofC to officiate.



ETA: David, might be worth asking the panel to send a copy of the letter to all open car registrants, if that not practical, to all registrants (as well as to Clubs and the chief scrutineer).

[Nuddy]

At the very least, you should not consider MX-5 Cup before getting experience on tracks other than Wakefield Park and SMP-South which will be the only tracks the Club uses for track days in 2017. There are alternatives to CAMS NSW Supersprints, including the Interclub Supersprint series (NSWRRC is hosting round 2 at SMP-GP on 19 March and they're low on entrants), ARDC track days, etc where you can drive some alternate tracks. And if you're going to try a CAMS Supersprint, I recommend you skip round 1 and tag along later in the year once the gremlins are ironed out.

I might go out to have a look at the interclub event tomorrow.
Im not ready to compete yet as I'm waiting on the roll bar from Brown Davis.
I see that MX-5 club members have been invited to this event but i think it is part of a interclub championship between clubs not including MX-5 club.
I am considering joining another club to increase my opportunities for motorsport. Maybe NSWRRC or maybe MG Newcastle (local).
Netsurfing for MG Newcastle has led me to the CSCA supersprints. This looks attractive as competitors are likely, i assume, to be driving 'traditional' sports cars rather than Commodores and the like.

[Guran]

Before you spend your money on joining another club, check whether your current membership entitles you to participate in CSCA events (read Supp Regs or speak with event secretary). It has been accepted in the past at CSCA supersprints I've done (as per today's NSWRRC round). And you do not need to be a championship entrant to participate in any of these multi-club supersprints, CAMS NSW or CSCA. They just give priority entry to championship entrants. There are always spots taken by visitors.

[RS2000]

I am the event sec. for CSCA Rd.2 at SMP North on 2nd April, & as Guran has indicated, I'm almost certain there will be vacancies for 'visitors'.

Nuddy -
All types of cars compete in the Combined Sports Car Association supersprint series.
The CSCA is made up of 8 British sports car clubs - CLA (Lotus), MOCA (Morgan), SCCA (Sprite), JDCA (Jag), AHOC (Austin Healey), TSOA (Triumph), MGCC & MGCCN (both MG).
Basically the cars are classed as Marque or Non-Marque. Marque cars have to be one of the above. All other cars, including MX5's (& Commodores!), are Non-Marque.
Non-Marque cars are further sub-classified according to mods, capacity & Classic or Modern.

As with all supersprints, running groups are basically lap time based, not class based. Obviously, if you are not a member of a CSCA club, you won't be included in any championship.

Cheers, Gregg

[Nuddy]

Thanks Gregg
So I don't need to join MG Newcastle.
However i did have a look at their calendar and they seem to have a motorsport event on nearly every weekend, sometimes 3.
Would i be correct to assume that at CSCA supersprints the majority of entrants would be Marque?