2017 CAMS NSW Superprints Championship

Nuddy · Postby **Nuddy** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:00 pm

I am getting a Torsen LSD, 4.3:1 ratio fitted to my otherwise standard 1998 NB8a
This will take me to class 4 for MX-5 club events. Does it count as an option for the model and thus allowable for type 2 for NSW supersprints?
I need to know as i want to enter the CSCA event and I think I need to specify 2 or 3. I know it doesn't matter as I won't score points but I think it is needed for the entry.

Nuddy · Postby **Nuddy** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:17 am

RS2000 wrote:
Entries opened on 1st March. Entry is via Cams Event Entry only. You will find the sup regs there, or on the MGCCN website.
Look forward to receiving your entry Nuddy.

Entered and paid.

RS2000 · Postby **RS2000** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:32 pm

Nuddy wrote:I am getting a Torsen LSD, 4.3:1 ratio fitted to my otherwise standard 1998 NB8a
This will take me to class 4 for MX-5 club events. Does it count as an option for the model and thus allowable for type 2 for NSW supersprints?
I need to know as i want to enter the CSCA event and I think I need to specify 2 or 3. I know it doesn't matter as I won't score points but I think it is needed for the entry.

The way I read the NSW SS regs, Type 2 is correct.
CSCA follow NSW SS regs (except don't have Type 1). You correctly entered in class 2AM - Type 2, under 2L, modern

RS2000 · Postby **RS2000** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:04 pm

It has been pointed out to me, that the diff ratio may take it out of type 2 for NSW SS champs.
So, I'll stay quiet!
Cheers

Nuddy · Postby **Nuddy** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:41 pm

Since I won't be competing for trophies nor championship points I doubt that anyone would mind.

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:31 pm

Are you trolling us Nuddy? You are happy to compete against people in a cheater car knowingly? And publicise the fact?!

Pick a rule set, and build to that. Or, build your car, and find a rule set it complies with. Third option is to forget about the rules, and just 'run what you brung' in MX5 Cup/MRA/AASA.

The Supersprint rules (technical and sporting regulations) are on the Supersprint website, link is on the first page of this thread.

:mrgreen:

Nuddy · Postby **Nuddy** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:03 pm

greenMachine wrote:Are you trolling us Nuddy? You are happy to compete against people in a cheater car knowingly? And publicise the fact?!

Pick a rule set, and build to that. Or, build your car, and find a rule set it complies with. Third option is to forget about the rules, and just 'run what you brung' in MX5 Cup/MRA/AASA.

The Supersprint rules (technical and sporting regulations) are on the Supersprint website, link is on the first page of this thread.

How is it competing against people? I can enter the event, run in the group assigned based on lap times not on class, be timed but neither score points nor appear in results.
Looks like competing against myself and nobody else. CSCA are kind enough to allow me to do that without being a member of a CSCA club but they quite rightly do not allow me to compete against people.
My purpose is to get the experience and track time to get to a lap time at Wakefield below 1:16 so that I can qualify for MX-5 Cup racing. Then I will be competing against people.

StillIC · Postby **StillIC** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:25 pm

RS2000 wrote:It has been pointed out to me, that the diff ratio may take it out of type 2 for NSW SS champs.
So, I'll stay quiet!
Cheers

From the rules: (wow section 4.3!)
"4.3 Non-standard gear and differential ratios are permitted only when available as an option for the model concerned from the original manufacturer, or it’s authorised supplier."

"Production Car means a mass produced automobile, either manufactured in Australia and/or overseas, the model of which is or has been commercially available to the general public in Australia and/or overseas as a new car through a manufacturer’s dealer network, and
(a) at least 200 examples of such model must have been registered for normal road use in Australia and/or in the country of manufacture"

Well, since Type 2 is for production cars and the rules apply to vehicles sold in Australia or their original nation of manufacture, it could be argued that a 4.3 ratio final drive in an NB is acceptable, as this ratio was available in the standard car sold in Japan. The sticking point is that it was only available with a 1.6 litre engine. But it is not clear to me that this is specifically disallowed in Type 2. As a very recent Type 2 competitor, my belief is that it should be allowed. Type 2 is, after all, for modified road registered cars, and a diff ratio swap from one NBxA to another NBxA seems well within the spirit of the rules. It is from the same model and it could be bought from the same dealer at the same time. Whether you were forced to tick another option box (1.6) at the same time you ticked the 4.3 diff option box in my mind is irrelevant.

StillIC · Postby **StillIC** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:27 pm

guss wrote:...heaps of well considered argument...

From the supersprint rules it appears that what CAMS Schedule E says is largely irrelevant, other than to confirm some tyres which comply.

"Road Tyres means tyres which, when fitted to a vehicle, will permit it to be registered for normal road use in New South Wales. To be considered as such, except at tread wear indicators, a tyre fitted to the vehicle must have a moulded tread pattern at least 1.5 millimetres deep that runs at least 75% across the tread of the tyre and predominantly around the circumference of the tyre.Tyres specified in the Production Car Tyre List contained in Schedule E of the CAMS Manual shall be deemed to comply as Road Tyres but Race Tyres are specifically excluded from this definition of Road Tyres. For the purposes of this definition of Road Tyres, “tread”means that part of the surface of the tyre that normally comes into contact with the road or ground and “moulded tread pattern” means the grooves moulded into the tread."

So the question is, does the Nitto tyre have grooves (moulded tread pattern) that run at least 75% across the width? If so, then it complies, if not, well, it doesn't, I believe.

Guran · Postby **Guran** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 pm

StillIC wrote:So the question is, does the Nitto tyre have grooves (moulded tread pattern) that run at least 75% across the width? If so, then it complies, if not, well, it doesn't, I believe.

The Schedule E requirement is for a "moulded tread pattern" across the width, not the proportion of "grooves". I doubt if any R-spec on the accepted list would have >75% grooves across the width. I suspect the rule is designed to eliminate tyres such as Nitto NT05R, Ventus Z214, Hoosier Drag Radial, etc which have large sections with no grooves at all on the tyre circumference.

More importantly for Type 1 and 2, the "road tyre" has to be legal for driving on NSW roads. Has anyone thought to check with RMS?

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:16 pm

Interesting discussion. I am trying to remember what the prevailing wisdom was back when I was running in 2B, but that was then, this is now. Certainly back then, there was no chatter about 4.3s (I would have been right on that if thought it was a goer), but I think the tech regs have changed in subtle but important ways since those days.

I am not aware of any ADM 4.3 NBs, but whether there were elsewhere I don't know. On my reading, those quotes seem to open up the options to any market supplied by the factory, so UK/Europe and USA may be worth a look too.

Linking the 4.3 to 1.6-engined models muddies the waters. If there is an 1.8 NB model sold somewhere with the 4.3, that would be very arguable. Installing a 4.3 in a 1.8 NB because the 1.6 NB had a 4.3, that is a more difficult sell. I'm glad I can leave that call to others.

That also raised the issue of 'model' vs 'option'. In the above case, it is pretty clear to me that the 4.3 is not an NB option; there is a model with a 4.3 though. Is that distinction important for eligibility considerations? Again, I will leave that to others.

I guess if I was wanting to run a 4.3 in a 2B car, or any mod that was not available on an ADM NB, I would be combing the planet for a market where that mod was available on an NB, preferably a 1.8 NB, and documenting it against the day a question was asked.

However, eligibility scrutineering has been a non-event in the 12 years or so that I have been involved - I have never been scrutineered formally for eligibility, even though I was, at times, running at the pointy end of the field. Eligibility is basically an honour system in my experience, and any policing seems to be amongst competitors themselves. Others may have different experiences though. However, there was a statement somewhere in the 2017 registration process about eligibility checking after registration (ie, sometime during the year).

:mrgreen:

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:24 pm

Guran wrote:More importantly for Type 1 and 2, the "road tyre" has to be legal for driving on NSW roads. Has anyone thought to check with RMS?

I am going to shoot from the hip here.

I think the critical thing for them is the 'DOT' compliance.

That would be closely followed by the absence of markings 'for racing/offroad use only' or similar. And this is where the NITTO might fall - it does not use the word 'only', but it does say something like 'for competition' as I understand it.

:mrgreen:

Luke · Postby **Luke** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:16 pm

greenMachine wrote:
Guran wrote:More importantly for Type 1 and 2, the "road tyre" has to be legal for driving on NSW roads. Has anyone thought to check with RMS?

I am going to shoot from the hip here.

I think the critical thing for them is the 'DOT' compliance.

That would be closely followed by the absence of markings 'for racing/offroad use only' or similar. And this is where the NITTO might fall - it does not use the word 'only', but it does say something like 'for competition' as I understand it.

It says "Recommended for competition events only".
The guy going around was saying the main reason they were banned was because of those words on the tyres. If that's the case the decision makers need to look up the dictionary as to what recommended means.

I am currently constructing an email to the Supersprint panel on these points as I don't want to double my tyre budget:

1. I question if this tyre ban is real. I have not seen any formal evidence of any nature stating a ban on Nitto NT01 in Type 1 and 2. I was only told verbally at Round 1. I will want to see minutes of the meeting that the tyre was banned in as evidence if there was such a meeting held to begin with.
2. I question why they did not supply a formal warning or ruling before the season started. They would have known people are using these tyres before making such a decision otherwise they would have not had to make a decision in the first place. Also the person going around stated that he was part of the meeting and he was using the tyres himself before this meeting. A regulation like this should be communicated before hand to every competitor, not on the day.
3. Thanks to Guss already going through the tyre rules, I am re-iterating the rules to the panel and asking where does the tyre trip up.
The part that really points to the fact the tyre is legal is in Schedule E, Section 8, Part 2 which is for speed events which a Supersprint is.

2. For Speed events
In addition to the tyres listed above:
(a) Any tyre that is certified and marked on the tyre wall with E-Mark, D.O.T or AS standards shall be acceptable for use in Speed events;

As far as I understand the Nittos are compliant with the current rules.
Nitto NT01s have Tread running across from left to right so I gather that covers the 75% rule. If it doesn't no other R-Spec tyre does either in that case as they all have stuff all tread. I also assume this rule is there to stop tyres that just have grooves around the circumference.
The tread is more than 1.5mm deep when they are new.
They have a D.O.T. marking on them.
I am not seeing why they have been banned if the ban is real to begin with.

Now a question for those with Yokohama A050's, do they have a DOT or E marking on them???
Since they only officially sell them in Japan and Australia I suspect they do not. Could someone confirm as this pretty much shows if they are "road legal".
Don't worry they will not get banned as they are on the approved tyre list which the rules says are all allowed.

Just one more thing.
On the day I was told I could run in Type 6 time attack on Nitto NT01's.
Reading the rules for Type 6 it says I have to use road tyres.

1.5 Not withstanding any requirement to the contrary contained in the Yokohama World Time Attack Challenge Technical Regulations for all Vehicles, Road Tyres are permitted.

So in other words Type 6 should also have a Nitto NT01 ban as well in that case.

guss · Postby **guss** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:00 am

Luke wrote:It says "Recommended for competition events only".

No, it reads "Recommended for competition events". Be careful when writing your letter, as the absence of the word 'only' is a strong argument. ;)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke · Postby **Luke** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:42 am

guss wrote:
Luke wrote:It says "Recommended for competition events only".

No, it reads "Recommended for competition events". Be careful when writing your letter, as the absence of the word 'only' is a strong argument. ;)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mine definitely say "only" at the end.
A quick google picture search has shown the same thing.