New Track for Sydney

[Luke]

I'm still seeing one glaring issue from both reviews here.
No one is going.
I suspect for many the problem is still the price.
While it's so empty it may be good value for people that want to get heaps of laps in and play around with settings.
But then that costs you extra on top for consumables.
I'm waiting for the special sale price to drum up business.

[NitroDann]

$2 per lap on a close to empty, fantastic brand new track with an open pit lane.

Cheap at F***.

Hundreds of guys hillcimb every week at around $1 per second.

Dann

[anastasic81]

Luddenham Tuesday
7 cars attending so it was Open Pit Lane except for a lunch break 12 to 1pm
Track was wet early on but dried out through the morning to fully dry before noon
My first time there and I recorded a 55.525 before lunch on AR-1s
Then it chucked down so after lunch I changed to the Michelin PS3s and couldn't get below 59 seconds.
However 15 year old Louise Taylor driving a WRX on Kumho semi slicks recorded a 58.088 on the wet track in the afternoon.
I do like this track. It's not fast, 2nd and 3rd gear in my car with just a moment in 4th at the end of the straight (4.1 final drive ratio, 17"wheels). It''s tighter than the South Crt where I don't use 2nd at all. There's good runoff areas throughout as obvious on the pic so damage when you overcook it is unlikely.
Although it wasn't a training day there were a couple of experienced advisors on hand giving hints and help + Ian Luff overseeing all and coming for a drive if you wanted. He gave me a lot of good advice.
At $250 it's good value for me. 81 laps on the day and I could have done lots more but sat a while when it was raining hard.
Louise did 98 and one other did 122.
I do prefer Wakefield but prefer this one over the South Circuit.
I will see how the new Marulan compares on the 30th.
For this one I can leave home at 6am, have a full day on the track and be home before 7pm. For Wakefield I would have to leave at 4 am and get home by 9pm. That's too much for an old man so I add 2 nights accomodation for a day at Wakefield so I try to make it at least 2 days on the track there.
I expect to be making frequent day trips to Luddenham until Circuit Italia opens.

Looking forward to hearing how you think the two compare.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Nuddy]

$2 per lap on a close to empty, fantastic brand new track with an open pit lane.

Cheap at F***.

Hundreds of guys hillcimb every week at around $1 per second.

Dann

Yes hillclimbs are more a social event. Very poor value for seat time.

Supersprints are not great either. Recent one at Nth Crt cost $260 and most got around 35 laps. I did 44 but I really push it and stay to the bitter end.

I've paid $280 for a Race Spec trackday at sth circuit with no timing. Got around 30 laps.

For seat time best is Trackschool OPL at Wakefield where one can do 140+ laps. The day costs $350 including timing and some tuition if you want it + morning tea and lunch but for me I have to add $200 accommodation (2 nights) and S200 fuel for the Patrol so the total comes to $750.
Even SOTS at Wakefield for $153 with no timing comes to a total of $553 for maybe 50 laps.
Compare to $250 for Luddenham and for me $90 for fuel for the Patrol totalling $340 for 100+ laps.
It makes a lot of sense to me. location is the key. I love the Wakefield track and will continue to get there whenever I can but very rarely do a single day there. Usually do 2 and sometimes 3.
When Circuit Italia opens I will be able to do a single day for $40 fuel for the Patrol, no accommodation required, leave home at 7 and be early for a 8am briefing. Who knows what they will charge?

[david_syd_au]

When Circuit Italia opens I will be able to do a single day for $40 fuel for the Patrol, no accommodation required, leave home at 7 and be early for a 8am briefing. Who knows what they will charge?

Lots!
The Circuit Italia preliminary marketing info I saw last year was promoting the track as a "premium" experience, with "glass sided" pit garages etc. I have since heard through a 3rd party that the track hire price will be higher than WP or SMSP South, and similar to SMSP GP.
We all had hopes it would provide a more convenient motor sport venue for those north of Sydney and some competitive pressure on WP (where the hire rates increased by 30% over 2016/2017) and SMSP, but if the pricing info is correct if will be impossible to have an "affordable" club event there, unless it is the Ferrari, Porsche or BMW club.

[greenMachine]

While on first look that plays into the interests of south-siders, it is a downer on the opportunity to play at new and interesting tracks, and (more importantly) it doesn't look like it is going to place any downward pressure on track pricing, possibly even provide headroom for further increases on existing tracks.

For the north-siders, this will be a disappointment, though with the considerations Nuddy has raised, it may be a viable alternative to Wakefield at least - IF promoters are prepared to take the financial risk of running events there. Track operator SOTS-type days may be the best option, in the short term anyway.

Whatever happens, if David's intelligence is accurate (resists urge to make smart comment here ), we look like paying more, not less, for our fun.

Given that CI are shooting for the premium market, with premium pricing, the obvious question will be is that going to lucrative enough to be a sustainable business? Answer: we will have to wait and see.

[jezman]

Devils Advocate here .................

isn't say, $250 a day for track use very good value ? IMO it is considering the infrastructure and running costs of a circuit !!
A Club track day at WP or South Circuit currently costs about $190, this is very cheap for what you get.
I believe the hiring cost is about $8,000 for WP ? That's third hand info so I could be wrong there ..........

Travel costs are a separate factor which applies to everyone and if you have a track nearby it's a bonus, but they are a part of the sport.

Iv'e been told, again 3rd hand, Luddenham are asking $14,000 for a club track day on a Sunday. If this is correct, our normal Club entry of 80 cars indicates a cost per car of $175. With a margin for the Club, surely an entry fee of say, $220+ is good ? Especially to run a new track in a great central location for nearly everyone ?
The $250 open track days there sound really good and I'll be there .... (as soon as Dann finishes my engine rebuild !!)
If Circuit Italia asks similar pricing, I think this is reasonable for a brand new circuit and I think our Club would fill a track day there easily, even from the southeners ??

Track days may be grassroots motorsport but it comes with reasonable costs, which are not going down, like all other life costs.
It's still great value fun .........................

[Spac]

I don't see CI's prices pushing up the prices of track days at other circuits. It won't lower them, but nor should it push them up.

[david_syd_au]

Iv'e been told, again 3rd hand, Luddenham are asking $14,000 for a club track day on a Sunday.

I have heard a similar figure but don't know if that includes the event permit, paramedics & ambulance, fire & rescue, provisioning for officials, all of which are add-ons to the track hire at other venues?
For example at WP the club has to pay extra to use the control tower!

If Circuit Italia asks similar pricing, I think this is reasonable for a brand new circuit and I think our Club would fill a track day there easily, even from the southeners ??

I am sure the MX-5 Club could fill "a" track day at any new track in NSW, through curiosity, however maintaining that level of interest against potentially higher dollar/lap pricing compared to WP or SMSP South, particularly from "southeners", may be difficult.

[jezman]

Yes, agree with all that .................

$250 for a track day is still good value IMO for the enjoyment we get ...........................

Motorsport was never 'cheap' (maybe hillclimbs) but they don't compare to track days.

[david_syd_au]

Another factor to consider is the need for officials.
I have not seen the Luddenham track and don't know what event control systems they have in place, ie lights, flag points etc.
At WP the MX-5 Club can run a track day with about 6 officials (not including scrutineers) as the light system and good visibility from the control tower means there is no need for flag officials other than at the start/finish line.
At SMSP South an additional 14 people are need to run the flag points, as most of the track is not visible from the control tower. While thanks to the generosity of members and their family or friends the club has always found enough people, it can be a struggle.
Again I don't know what the requirements will be for officials at Luddenham and Circuit Italia, but if a significant number of people are needed that could also be an issue with running many events there annually.

[Nuddy]

Yes, agree with all that .................

$250 for a track day is still good value IMO for the enjoyment we get ...........................

Motorsport was never 'cheap' (maybe hillclimbs) but they don't compare to track days.

Our club does wonders, so much with so little, thanks to our wonderful volunteers.
The first step towards affordable motorsport is to join the MX-5 Club, even if you don't have a MX-5
I was speaking to a non owner the other day who will soon join (associate member) to access more motorsport.
I think he will end up with a MX-5 before too long.
$190 for a trackday at Wakefield, including timing is incredible value, made possible by our volunteers, the efforts of our motorsport executive and of course the fact that we get a full field.
2 recent supersprints (run by other clubs) ran at a loss due to lack of a full field.
One can pay $265 for a Saturday at Wakefield with Track Day Club and they get a full field - booked out weeks ahead. I don't know what Yvette makes out of it but it is a commercial (for profit) operation.

SOTS/Test and Tune at Wakefield is great value at $153 for a weekday but you do your own timing (no big deal but no independent record).
No control tower yet at Luddenham, I don't know if one is planned. Most of the circuit can be clearly seen from the start/finish point. They have lights and flaggies should not be essential. They had a CAMS inspection last week and are committed to doing whatever is required for certification.

Luddenham Motorsport Parkaaa.jpg

Luddenham Motorsport Parkaab.jpg

[Nuddy]

Devils Advocate here .................

isn't say, $250 a day for track use very good value ? IMO it is considering the infrastructure and running costs of a circuit !!
A Club track day at WP or South Circuit currently costs about $190, this is very cheap for what you get.
I believe the hiring cost is about $8,000 for WP ? That's third hand info so I could be wrong there ..........

Travel costs are a separate factor which applies to everyone and if you have a track nearby it's a bonus, but they are a part of the sport.

Iv'e been told, again 3rd hand, Luddenham are asking $14,000 for a club track day on a Sunday. If this is correct, our normal Club entry of 80 cars indicates a cost per car of $175. With a margin for the Club, surely an entry fee of say, $220+ is good ? Especially to run a new track in a great central location for nearly everyone ?
The $250 open track days there sound really good and I'll be there .... (as soon as Dann finishes my engine rebuild !!)
If Circuit Italia asks similar pricing, I think this is reasonable for a brand new circuit and I think our Club would fill a track day there easily, even from the southeners ??

Track days may be grassroots motorsport but it comes with reasonable costs, which are not going down, like all other life costs.
It's still great value fun .........................

If it is $8k for Wakefield and $14k for luddenham then surely the cost for a club day per car would have to be about $330, say $300 which would be out of the question for our club IMO. If the club can't do it for $190 I think they will stick to Wakefield and South Crt.
I really don't think they will get clubs there at that rate.
As of today their track days on 28/6 and 30/8 are booked out, that means 90 drivers.
No garages at Luddenham. They have 1 huge carport, 2 cars deep and I think 12 cars wide so 24 cars under cover. That's well short of Wakefield but well ahead of South Circuit.

[Nuddy]

I'm still seeing one glaring issue from both reviews here.
No one is going.
I suspect for many the problem is still the price.
While it's so empty it may be good value for people that want to get heaps of laps in and play around with settings.
But then that costs you extra on top for consumables.
I'm waiting for the special sale price to drum up business.

You could be waiting a while. They are fully booked for 28/6 and 30/8

I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve and chasing seat time. I can do a weekday at Luddenham in the day.
Wakefield is better but I need at least 2 days in a row, preferably 3, to make it worthwhile. That means a weekend.
ARDC private practice on the GP circuit is also do-able for me in a day and cheap. I'll do one soon but Fridays are not great for me ATM. I have heard that you don't get as many laps as one would hope for.
I won't be paying Driving Solutions $375 for half a day on the GP circuit.

[Nuddy]

When Circuit Italia opens I will be able to do a single day for $40 fuel for the Patrol, no accommodation required, leave home at 7 and be early for a 8am briefing. Who knows what they will charge?

Lots!
The Circuit Italia preliminary marketing info I saw last year was promoting the track as a "premium" experience, with "glass sided" pit garages etc. I have since heard through a 3rd party that the track hire price will be higher than WP or SMSP South, and similar to SMSP GP.
We all had hopes it would provide a more convenient motor sport venue for those north of Sydney and some competitive pressure on WP (where the hire rates increased by 30% over 2016/2017) and SMSP, but if the pricing info is correct if will be impossible to have an "affordable" club event there, unless it is the Ferrari, Porsche or BMW club.

Driving Solutions are running half days at GP circuit for $375 and getting plenty of participants it seems. I would expect more than South Crt and same as GP would be fine with me. Here's hoping MG Newcastle will do something with CI similar to the ARDC do with their private practice days.
Once it opens that could spell the end of Wakefield for me, except for races.